RE: The state of the biz

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RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 8:55:30 AM

dawnt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluekelli

Thanks for this thread Dawn... But.. my question is this... well, actually this has made me think much about myself... Then am I a hypocrite since I am trying to make a living painting - and I feel the frustration about what art has been reduced too... but I still am a consumer looking for a good deal, whether it be at Walmart or Costco, or whatever... (actually I hate walmart)... but.. am I supporting the decline?

I don't think you can "blame" the consumer if they are uneducated. Do you buy art or craft made in China as gifts or to decorate your home? If so, then that could be considered hypocritical, I suppose. I don't expect everyone who picked up a Wal-mart lamp realized that the domestic lamp makers were decimated. So they can't really be blamed.

I think we need to do what we can. Quilts, glass, art, pottery.....buy from local artisans. Necessities.....well.....you do what you have to do to get by. But if you can look for the "made in China" label and avoid that if possible, and start discussions with people....spread awareness....its a start.

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Post #: 21

RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 9:29:31 AM

lamillerphotography

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Uneducated is right Dawn.

Until I got into art, I bought things from where ever. Who knew. Now I only buy decorative things that are artesian made. I know better and I also know what will happen if people don't think along those lines.

I am always harping on my family and friends to do the same.

Bumper stickers: Be an original, buy original art!

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Post #: 22

RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 10:14:55 AM

glistenglass

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These days there are so many more incentives to not buy from China ... lead paint on toys, melamine in food for our pets. Hopefully all of this will cause a backlash.

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RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 12:18:14 PM

labeana

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yes, it used to be that "made in China" just meant it was cheap, both in price and in quality....now it has a more sinister meaning...

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RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 12:32:58 PM

dawnt

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The thing about China.....they are exactly where we were during our industrial revolution. Remember Sinclair's "The Jungle", and the story about Teddy Roosevelt spitting out his breakfast sausage, yelling "I've been poisoned!"?

Things WILL change in China, just as they changed here. Both from the labor and demand sides. Probably sooner on the demand side. Consumers will demand safer products and higher quality, and prices will go up. Eventually, China WILL have a labor movement, just as we did. Unfortunately, because of the Communist State, this may take much longer, and be more violent and bloody than even the U.S. and Europe were. But, it will happen. The people that make the products will begin to demand a higher quality of life for their labors, and again, prices will go up.

And no....we probably won't be able to afford as much crap as we can now. But we WILL be able to compete, and therefore, possibly, be able to afford more quality goods. With time. Lots of time. (All assuming our entire economy doesn't crash and burn because of oil dependence!)

None of this helps for the immediate situation, I guess. But sometimes it helps me to understand the historical context and likely outcome of the economic situations we are experiencing. (My college minor was economics, BTW.

)

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RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 12:47:17 PM

glistenglass

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As an aside, I saw something on the news last night where the price of pasta has doubled in Italy. Seems their government is paying wheat farmers to instead grow sunflowers ... they are using the seeds for something similar to ethanol, making wheat a scarce commodity. Naturally the Italians are up in arms with pasta prices the way they are, and even making their own is very expensive due to the price of flour.

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Post #: 26

RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 8:30:25 PM

podkaynestudios

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5 years ago when I started "breaking in" to this business, I sold things for reasonable (not break-even) prices that were modestly covering my time and material. I also managed to sell on a very regular basis. That dried up almost immediately. Now, I love doing work that is my own expression, and I do sell that...occasionally. I have to live, too.

But I figure, doing something that gets a new market excited about art, any art, and requesting reasonable amounts for it, is a good way to keep going when collectors and patrons (as well as "would-be" patrons who instead go to the local flea market to buy 10,000 oil paintings at $15 a pop) are simply not buying "traditional" art.

So, for almost 4 years now, I've been painting video game sprites and bringing the idea of "real" art to a market not really associated with art collecting, and I have done very well with it, and one point being briefly featured on G4. Bringing nostalgic gamers, and general young people into the fold of what it feels like to buy original, hand-painted work, I feel is only going to help in the long term. There's a difference between paying $3 for a poster and spending $100 for something that is meaningful to them and meeting the person who captured it for them.

I sometimes feel like a huge sell-out, I get discouraged, and I don't want to do it anymore. I didn't come up with this to make money, I really like what I do--but sometimes it gets down to having to paint another Mario sprite so I can pay to have the cat vaccinated... and I realize it's not about what I want or enjoy anymore, it's all about the customer. Many times they want me to do a character or scene because it was nostalgic to them... and maybe I never even liked the game it's from. It can be hard to do that day after day.

Kind of a long, rambling post, but I have to admit, the best way I can think of to survive is not to think of that next great piece as much as that next great audience. Try to bring some new blood into the arts. It might help everyone in the long run.

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Post #: 27

RE: The state of the biz - 9/14/2007 8:50:29 PM

dianam

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quote:

But sometimes it helps me to understand the historical context and likely outcome

thanks for the history Dawn, that makes me less paranoid (I took too many art classes to spare one for economics

or typing!

) I wish I knew more about both!

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RE: The state of the biz - 9/15/2007 7:59:43 AM

dawnt

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quote:

Kind of a long, rambling post, but I have to admit, the best way I can think of to survive is not to think of that next great piece as much as that next great audience. Try to bring some new blood into the arts. It might help everyone in the long run.

This is a great point. If you look at collectors of fan art, (comic books, video games etc.), you can see an evolution over time. I've seen many refine and expand their tastes as they mature to include more and more original work, and know a few who have very nice collections and have become true patrons of working artists.

And almost certainly the "sellout" factor has been wrestled with throughout history. From the enslaved artisans of Rome, (who were often quite revered and could life a lavish lifestyle), to the agnostics of the Renaissance with their Cardinal patrons, artists have had to cater to their audience in order to live decently and have the luxury of producing, on occasion, what they truly want to create. If one is to be a "successful working artist" as opposed to a "starving artist", you have to work with your market.

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Post #: 29

RE: The state of the biz - 11/9/2007 5:54:56 PM

ArtByErika

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From: Northwest Arkansas USA
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Dawn I belong to a co-op owned by our local art club. This club amazes me as it not only runs the club and the gallery which is open 6 days a week, it also runs a major art festival every october which is a juried event open to all vendors who make their own crafts (vs. reselling overseas items). As for the gallery, each artist pays $15 monthly, then we each work 3 half days monthly and pay 20% commission. The option is we don't have to work but pay 40% commission plus 6 creidted attendance at the monthly meetings.

The building is a an old buffalo barn which now houses 3 stories of art. Its on a property that will eventually be donated to us when we reach 9 years of maintenance which is next year :) Good luck with your Project Dawn!

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Post #: 30

RE: The state of the biz - 11/12/2007 11:19:57 AM

SBedsaul

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Ahhh! The sellout factor.

Michaelangelo wanted to sculpt. Was the Sistine Chapel a sellout? Degas was rejected by the arts community as were all impressionists. Impressionism as a title was considered an insult in the beginning. So, they did decorative painting on fans to survive.

I've had to change my way of thinking. Matching someone's interior decor is not an insult, but a design challenge. Color is color and would still bear the stamp of my style. Now I get excited when someone wants a bit of me to enhance their homes and life. It's an honor.

Over the years, I've been a forensic artist, graphic designer, sign painter, picture framer....all to feed me when times were slow, but still giving me the opportunity to be creative. Lucrative? Well, if wealth were the main goal, I would have chosen another career rather than art.

Historically speaking, it's all a pendulum, swinging back and forth, never static. Competition is good and the issue of China justs means that I will continue to produce the best quality work possible. There have always been movements in the art world that celebrated handcrafted work, such as the Arts & Crafts movement, that served as a rebellion against cheap mass produced schlock. Trust me, that pendulum is about to swing again.

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Post #: 31

RE: The state of the biz - 11/12/2007 12:01:02 PM

dianam

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quote:

Trust me, that pendulum is about to swing again.

Boy, I hope you're right

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Post #: 32

RE: The state of the biz - 6/10/2008 8:09:11 AM

knocknashee

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From: Sligo, Ireland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: labeana

yes, it used to be that "made in China" just meant it was cheap, both in price and in quality....now it has a more sinister meaning...

Not to imply China is a wonderful society, but the are just doing things their own way - not the American way or European way.

The whole issue of "toxic painting in the children's toys" is completely overblown and only seems to be headline news in the USA. I suspect a lot of this is rooted in nationalism and propganda. It's the fault of the USA and other countries CEOs for transfering production to China in order to boost profits (and their personal profit shares). The blame goes with them - not the Chinese.

In general, the quality of Chinese products is superb these days by any benchmark from what I gather. Someone I know designs precision electric motors and has them made to speck in China. He says the quality is fantastic and they are so inexpensive to produce. So it just goes to show you there are all kinds of varibles in this debate. There is the issue of cheap and very real exploited labour there, but that's something none of us can really do anything about as long as most people demand inexpensive consumer goods. We are the monster.

I agree with the poster who says we shoud all try and buy handcrafted products. Same for food as well. Even without the Eco argument, there is a lot to be said for a local sustainable economy from both and social, economic and cultural level. Support you local shopkeeper, grower, hardware supplier and ARTISTS!

< Message edited by knocknashee -- 6/10/2008 8:42:37 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: The state of the biz - 7/4/2008 6:25:01 PM

Dandelion

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Thank you for starting this topic Dawnt! I've been asking myself the same questions.

:)

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Post #: 34

RE: The state of the biz - 7/31/2008 9:24:09 AM

pataroosky

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At least I know I'm not alone! I've been painting houses in my husband's construction business instead of canvases for the past 3 years because people see more value in having the bathroom painted than having an original piece of art on the wall! Then folks have the audacity to say "Wow, if I had your talent I'd be an artist." I answer "How many original pieces of artwork do you or your friends have on the wall? How many of you live in unpainted houses?" Point made. It's sad, but you gotta eat!

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Post #: 35

RE: The state of the biz - 12/18/2008 4:11:53 PM

lochness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawnt

The glass business is certainly not unique in being hard hit by China, but it has definitely been particularly hard hit, along with other labor intensive fine craft. The stained glass lamp business in the US is virtually non-existent, with the exception of repairs. In the span of 5 years, nearly every lamp maker in this country has been put out of business. Cheap Home Depot lighting has taken a product that was once considered to be truly a luxury item and reduced it to trinket trash. Of course the product itself is not trash. It takes hours of painstaking skilled labor and is intrinsically beautiful. But perception is everything. Where once, the customer was willing to pay for that beauty, now they perceive it to be "cheap stuff" and can't understand why a lamp made by an aritsan, taking many hours and hundreds of dollars in materials, should cost any more than the one at Wal-Mart.

Panels are suffering the same plight. As are garden items, chimes, fused vessels, jewelry.....the list goes on. When I first saw Dianne's garden stakes and Andrea's wind chimes on eBay, I had never seen anything like them. And they were fetching good prices for their work. But in the last several years, I've seen similar, albeit inferior, products in the aisles at Hobby Lobby. It is a known fact that the Chinese manufacturers' marketing teams scour the internet to see what labor intensive craft is popular and fetching good prices. Then they copy it and sell it to US marketers for pennies. Their turnaround time is staggering to me. How quickly we have to adapt!

The smaller items suffer less, as time and materials make them more affordable to the consumer, and thankfully, some consumers are still willing to spend on artisan made craft.

Add to that the massive influx of "hobbyist" competition in online sales; those who truly don't care if they make a profit, or are even paid at all for their work, but are simply subsidizing their hobby material expenses, and the full time artisan is in a real bind.

Are we being phased out? Is there a place for us any more?

I believe there can be, but it calls for hard work and hard choices.

Peace,
Dawn

this sounds like many of the comments I've read about the Industrial Revolution. Since we are in the Digital Revolution, it's a relevant subject once again. Thousands of businesses closed thier doors due to rip offs and copycats. The hand-made item became of little value to the average consumer and everyone wanted something made in a factory!!!

I don't think you can blame the consumer. (that was mentioned, as well)
It took someone like william morris to convince the average citizen that hand crafted meant quality.
http://www.morrissociety.org/designs.htm#tapestries

One of my profs mentioned that even though this was the highest quality of design and brought the hand crafted item into the category of fine art once again, your average consumer could not afford it.

Does history repeat itself???

Think about the influence of technology during the Industrial Revolution. It brought lighting and heat into everyone's home for the first time but created slums, the first polution, child labor and horrible working conditions. Then it brought the great depression!

Artists turned against anything mechanical and towards a more natural, organic style. Poets began to critisize cheap, manufactured goods and the general prublic did a complete opposite swing. Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" was written about the horrors of a mechanical age controling us. (parallel that to Terminator 2!) Also, Edvard Munch's "The Scream" was warning the public about a nation out of control by technology.

From there, artists, received the first copyright laws and government funding for the arts, a new organic style called art nouveau and a higher status for the hand-crafted item.

...but it was a long, tough ride.

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Post #: 36

RE: The state of the biz - 12/18/2008 4:59:51 PM

labeana

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there was also a renassaince of fine handmade crafts during the sixties and seventies which led to the art shows,fairs and galleries we are familiar with today....people searching for "back to the land" experiences and concerns about the environment looked for ways to get back in touch with simpler times, and craft schools blossomed again.
Places like Penland, Arrowmont, Haystack and other sources for relearning crafts that were almost lost became very popular again.

Etsy is just the newest version of this interest in things handmade....it's been thriving for over forty years now with the American Craft Council shows, the Smithsonain and Philadelphia Craft shows....and no end in sight....this is my own background, I've lived through this era..... I love that Etsy has continued this world view and brought it to the attention of a whole new generation of people making things by hand....it's also interesting to look back and see where it came from...

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RE: The state of the biz - 12/31/2008 3:57:55 PM

almalee

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wow I am coming to this late but this is actually what I have been thinking for a long long time. I am going to quote from one of my posts on mixed messages today in the interest of saving time.

quote:

I think that the deeper problem is not whether investors will make a profit and consider investment, it is more a matter of the current cultures perscepetion of the value of art. I don't mean monitary here, I mean I think that there is a cheap fast and easy attitude going on. Artist are not valued. Prints have gone from limited editions to art on demand. The digital age has dawned and so much is possible with imaging that was not even dreamed of before. China (God Bless em) has stepped into the mix and is willing to produce, yes even quality art at pennies on the dollar. Art publishers have been unscrupulous in their dealing with artists and now own the rights... Need I go on. I have had my own relatives ask about buying my prints, I told them to go to Art.com. "Oh yeah I've been there decorated my whole house for under $150.00. "That is the problem" I replied. In a nut shell I think that the artist community needs to stop with all the different marketing strategies and concentrate on coming up with a plan to increase the value of art and artists as a whole with in the culture. Until the advent of marketing artists were an intregral part in the shaping of culture...now it seems that that is reversed. the tail is wagging the dog. I don't know how to do that...I'm asking???????? what are your ideas.

I am kinda as I am sure other artist are exasperated with this. I am coming from the world of art lisencing where I have lost my derrierr, between agency fees, and copyright infringment, (from one of the major companies you have listed above I might add) and mass marketing burnout. I have come to the conclusion that licensing is a major part of the problem. I have talked in previous posts about how things get ripped off once they are manufactured in China. But the thing is we can't keep it from going there. Thee advent of the digital age has taken its toll too. I have for the most part switched from digital art to the old fashion kind, in hopes that originals will create more value... All of these things are contributing to the devaluation of art and artist and most importantly ART CULTURE. It has to stop, I am at a loss as to how to do that. I am so glad you started this Thread!!!! I am staying tuned!

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Post #: 38

RE: The state of the biz - 12/31/2008 5:21:19 PM

dawnt

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I love how this thread keeps getting revived! (Seriously....I think it is an important discussion!) I'm too fried today from other "stuff" to reply, but I'll be back.....

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Post #: 39

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